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The Bitcoin News Show #77 – Users suing, Coinbase cuts off Wikileaks, LN Debate

The Bitcoin News Show for the week of Apr 23rd with your host @theonevortex and panelists @lopp @WeathermanIam @paullinator @udiWertheimer

Thanks so much to everyone who came out and saw us at the Denver Meetup at the Grid co-working space!

The bcash team built a transaction visualizer, but it backfired by showing that there are hardly any cars on the bcash freeway, and a constant stream of traffic on BTC

Recent article on bloomberg states that The best performing ICOs are the ones without working products

It’s official, #bitcoin is now the 5th largest economy in the world. In 2017, the BTC on-chain economy had a nominal GDP of $3.6 trillion.

It has been reported that Bitcoin was the ninth most read Wikipedia article last year, coming out ahead of cultural sensations like Wonder Woman, Elon Musk, and Star Wars.

The 17 Millionth Bitcoin Is About to Be Mined

Rumor: Nasdaq May Launch Bitcoin Trading in October 2018

600+ Bitcoin Users Seek Lawsuit Against & CEO Roger Ver

Both Wikileaks and CheapAir were left hanging by coinbase, but now WikiLeaks Store has since secured a new payment processor,

Lightning Network Debate with Paul Puey

43 Comments on The Bitcoin News Show #77 – Users suing, Coinbase cuts off Wikileaks, LN Debate

  1. Which is the real Bittcoin? Count the lines of code changed by Segwit and how many were changed by Bitcoin Cash would be a good start. Then some charts to see changes in transaction times and transaction fees before and after the fork to see which changed the least.

    • Go use Win 95 or DOS, those are the real operating systems. They haven’t changed much in the last 20 years.

    • Bitcoin NEEDS more devs as it keeps getting further and further away from usability rather than becoming stable (as what happens eventually to a :”protocol”).

    • Robert Lefebure have you seen the list of contributors on bitcoin? Thousands. Bcash has only in the neighborhood of 20. Bitcoin has 10’s of patches and tweaks made every week. Bcash has had 0 in the last 28 days according to github. Do you even know where bcash does their dev coordination? How would a new dev submit a pull request?

    • Ansel Lindner And you totally missed my point (or glossed over) about Bitcoin being a protocol. I am a developer AND DON’T NEED A BUNCH OF DEVELOPERS MESSING WITH A PROTOCOL.

      Can you imagine a “developers” changing http, ftp, voip, ip/tcp all the time? The Internet would cease to exist. That’s the difference between a software and a protocol. So you want tons of developers working and changing Bitcoin? Well warm fuzzy happy feelings to you. Not me, get the thing stable and then leave the f…ing thing alone! ALL it needed was a damn increase of “1” to “8”!. SO they made alot more changes that didn’t fix a damn thing and are proud as hell about that? I, know, I know, I’ve been heraring it for 6 months … “Wait, Lightning Network is coming!”. And that IS the main reason they sold on us Segwit (so that LN would work). I have used Bitcoin for years to buy Gift cards to dozens of merchants who could care less about whetyer they were getting Bitcoin or not. And I did business with merchants that WANTED Bitcoin and offered discounts if I PAID with Bitcoin. I look at what Lightning Network is aiming for and laugh. WTF, a glorified freaking gift card that forces the merchant into Bitcoin with lots of complexity that they have to ADD Bitcoin into in order to get Bitcoin. Freakin brilliant! So here we are six months after the commotion of the hard fork and how many merchants, exactty, have payment channels? PLEASE provide a link or spare me the BS and over-hype. NO ONE is using it and NO ONE WILL BE! It is too complex, to cumbersome, to RISKY, and the only benefit it offers over a gift card is that I could get a refund from my Starbuck’s channel if I decided I never wanted to buy another coffee there again. Because now, I can buy a gift card for as little as $10 worth of cryptocurrency. I like their coffee and their atmosphere so, please, don’t tell me a payment channel with them will make the experience better so I don’t have to tell you that you are full of s__t.

      Lightning Network … the overhyped gift card that took down Bitcoin. Brilliant!

    • No it’s you my friend that is missing the point. There is no victory to claim. You guys are playing word games, everyone sees through it over time. I don’t have to sit here and argue with you over which one is bitcoin because the market has damn well spoke with all sorts of metrics to back it up, those user metrics are getting further apart not closer.

      Bcashers want validation through our arguments, you guys are grasping at straws because you’ve already lost and are in the denial stage. gg.

    • This was the first Honest conversation on lightning network. Nice one Paul. Go BCH The real bitcoin. Good luck with the lawsuit BTC core shrug lol.

    • When dollars were backed by gold the $10 dollar note you carried meant that you were entitled to that much worth of gold. If you earned another $10 dollars than you were entitled to 20$ worth of gold. LN works the same way and is the correct approach because on chain scaling compromises security. With LN you’ll be able to put your holdings on the Blockchain whenever you wish. The Bitcoin Blockchain itself however, will generally be reserved to handle the most important transactions in the world. My purchase of a coffee does not have to be recorded by 200 thousand computers all over the world and on Mars. That’s not practical and just plain Bcash crazy.

      BTW, Roger Ver is not going to become the Zuckerberg of crypto. The dream is over. Poor, poor, Roger.

    • vortex you’re too nice. Paul was nonsensical. LN an altcoin, wtf? Udi was very diplomatic towards Paul, underservedly so.

  2. Never miss a WCN & BD episodes! Keep up great work all you guys!! Btw, +1 agreed with @Weathermanlam thoughts on LN/scaling :thumbsup:

  3. Great show, really good debate, is always good to allow conflicting views on a topic to be express. My understanding on the debate “LN is an alt coin” this is programmable money, some people don’t grasp that concept yet, meaning that is not only money, is not only a stored of value, is also codes so it can be programmable, that being said, we can’t belief it’s another coin just because it was programmed to do other things.

    We as people tend to associate new stuffs to old concepts, and when we accept the new concepts of cryptocurrencies and altcoin, if there some new stuffs coming again we want to resist to the new concepts again and get a hold to the already a custom new/old concepts of bitcoin and alt coin.

    In conclusion, we have to act, not theorize, build and move forward, not trying to explain new stuffs just because we want to justified previous decision (like trying to justified having a bag of alt coins, saying that LN will be another alt coin, and in reality we are waiting for the gainzz). Peace out.

    • Or the other way around. A person’s business is an extension of that person and thus their views. Their opinion biases their business model.

  4. This guy is crazy, does he think credit cards are a different currency that paper cash? It looks like he’s not even trying to understand.

  5. JW bringing it home. Nice work JW. All the talk about “is lightning and altcoin” is unbelievable dense at this point. LN works, it’s here, it’ll keep developing and getting better and better. LN’s problems are much smaller and easier to figure out than the altcoins’ problems.

    • Exactly!. Saying that LN could be an alt coin is utterly stupid, like saying that credit cards are alt-dollars

  6. Four people are too many people for a debate. JW is the only guy who had anything interesting to say, but he wasn’t allowed to speak all of his points. That debate was a complete waste of time.

  7. The last 15 mins was the best. Paul closes saying, to paraphrase, “If people give LN time to develop, benefit of the doubt, and we trust issues will get better, we own that same courtesy to altcoins.” That’s completely false. There are very good reasons altcoins won’t work going back to the scaling of the internet. The first thing people could do when giving altcoins equal time is to break down their economic and security models. We don’t have to wait and see if bcash will work, we know it’s broken by looking at the project as it is today. Bitcoin will scale because it has almost all of the decentralization of the entire space, all the true cutting edge philosophers, developers and economists, who instead of trying to shoehorn existing basic tech into a founder’s fantasy, are working on bitcoin. Adam Back plainly said nothing is happening of note in the altcoins, cited in the Tor and Bitcoin whitepapers. There were no economic reasons given, but I know JW would have gotten into that if he had more time. The only reason I can see for giving time to altcoins is because it’ll help you better understand bitcoin.

    Lightning works, it’s evolving in front of our eyes, it’s the most exciting area of development since 2009 bitcoin probably, it’s not an altcoin.

    About the UX and different balances, look, people are overestimating retail use of on chain txs. They will almost exclusively be used to open and close channels. No/few retail will except on chain txs in a few years, just like no one excepts ACH or swift at pos. Many people will only own LN bitcoins. Your salary will come via LN, you’ll spend on LN. You’ll need an advanced wallet to manually do an on chain tx. If you’re out of ideas, time to move on.

    • This reveals what you are really about … “all the true cutting edge philosophers, developers and economists, who instead of trying to shoehorn existing basic tech into a founder’s fantasy, are working on bitcoin”.

      So, to paraphrase what you just said, 1) The original developer of BITCOIN (i.e. Satoshi Nakamoto) failed to include existing basic tech 2) Had a fantasy about Bitcoin that your 1) true cutting edge philosophers, developers and economists came across and decided to build.

      The only problem with your reasoning (and its a huge problem) is that Bitcoin was working fine before your elitists arrived on the scene. The only flaw was the blocksize limit and THAT has been corrected with Bitcoin Cash by changing the configuration setting from a limit of “1” to a limit of “8” (a change of one character in one line of code I believe).

      After your elitists arrived to “save the day”, transaction times slowed to a crawl, transaction fees skyrocketed to the moon, and tyhe Pied Piper line was formed waiting for “Lightning Network” to, once again, “save the day”.

    • Robert Lefebure You totally missed the point. Satoshi was the first cutting edge philosopher, developer and economist. Many of the great people from the early days are still involved with bitcoin. Only a few have left, most famously a few stubborn inferior devs left for Bcash bch, ICOs or bank projects. Bitcoin is still the bitcoin Satoshi gave us. The WP isn’t a spec, it’s an initial formulation of thoughts. It didn’t have the 21 million limit either, but great decisions were made in those first few years, which included contributions from many current Core devs.

      Bitcoin operates on consensus and science, not gospel. Bitcoin pushes forward every field it touches. It will get upgraded along with all other tech. The change of blocksize is not just changing one number. It touches significant consensus level code and must be reworked in several places. This was discussed for years, I don’t know why you’d say that except if you had no clue about it.

      The second half of the point is that altcoins, including bcash bch, are selling fantasies that are inferior both from a technical perspective (bugs everywhere, if there’s even code) and an economic perspective (they don’t understand how monetary bootstrapping works).


    • Ansel Lindner In my opening, I said that comparing the amount of code that was changed by Segwit and the amount of code changed by Bitcoin Cash would reveal which was ckloser to the original Bitcoin. I stated I believed Bitcoin Cash made just one small change to a configuration that determined the blocksize. They, in other words, didn’t make hardly any change at all to the code.

      So can you bring up any examples of other code changes to Bitcoin Cash to back up your claim that “The second half of the point is that altcoins, including bcash bch, are selling fantasies that are inferior both from a technical perspective (bugs everywhere, if there’s even code)”?

      I tend to doubt you can. So either you are ignorant, talking up FUD and that you have no clue what you are saying, or you are an outright liar. Again, I see Bitcoin Cash as having changed just one configuration setting. So where am I missing it? I don’t see where they changed anything but I do see segwit and Lightning Network as MAJOR changes. And LN is still pie in the sky so I’m sure has bugs no one has even imagined yet.

    • Ansel Lidner Regarding your statement “Lightning works, it’s evolving in front of our eyes, it’s the most exciting area of development since 2009 bitcoin probably, it’s not an altcoin.”, can you name one serious merchant using Lightning Network? Is Coinbase? Bitpay? Any merchant? Even one? What you say is evolving and is worth watching is more akin to watching grass grow.

  8. This episode reminded that, these days, any arsehole willing to turn up can find a soap box on which to bleat their nonsense.
    Well done social media 😐

  9. Weatherman is spot on. Is Visa or even Paypal a currency or are they tools for using currency? Is a dollar or a euro in Paypal worth more or less than one in my pocket? It’s an interesting thought experiment but to come out and declare Lightening network an altcoin is an extreme position and FUD.The fact that Paul freaks out when challenged (a la Roger Ver) tells you all you need to know.

    • Weatherman was emotional messed up a nice technical discussion, i liked when he got Andy Hoffman to change the subject about his rodium scam. That was spot on by Weatherman

  10. Is a gold coin in the vault worth more than a gold coin in my pocket? Is the one in your pocket not gold? The security situation is very different. But the underlying value is the underlying value. This argument is such a stretch. The sine qua non of a coin is its discrete value (i.e. one of the 21M BTC coins). The value on BTC is perfectly conserved whether on chain, or being carried around and/or transacted off-chain. The value is perfectly preserved. This seems like common sense to me.

  11. I absolutely think Paul’s business incentives are relevant to this discussion. I remember on a Bitcoin Uncensored interview 1-2 years ago, he was talking about how he needed to extend his business to altcoins (I believe he specifically mentioned Augur on that interview) in order to grow his business; make more money. That’s totally fine. But he can’t hide from that fact when it’s pointed out to him. It’s very disingenuous.

    • Yeah, here’s the link. Again, I don’t see anything wrong with Paul trying to profit off altcoins. What is a problem is Paul’s protesting when someone points out his incentive to promote altcoins, especially trying to define Lightning as an altcoin. It’s very relevant to what he says.

    • Honkin Poser TY. I agree. I also think it’s very important to hold people accountable for their actions/motives. Especially in this space where scammers get away with $billion scams.

  12. I know I’m beating a dead horse, but the idea that Lightning is an altcoin is really dumb. People like to play semantic games of Twister.

  13. What is Paul’s agenda? An altcoin is a different coin. Having two different BTC balances does not make LN an altcoin. Most already have different wallets, but it doesn’t mean we view it as a different coin. It’s an odd argument.

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